Interview with Dr. Ben Rucker, July 25, 2019

AC: Ashley Carter (interviewer) BR: Benjamin Rucker

AC: Alright, today is July 25, 2019. I am with Dr. Benjamin Rucker and I am so thankful that he is here today to tell us about his experience. So how do you feel today?

BR: I'm doing great. I am delighted to be here.

AC: I always like to start these out by just asking you to -- Let's just start with just an overview of your experience at UGA. You graduated in 1972.

BR: Graduated actually in June of 1971.

AC: June of 1971. Talk to me about your experience at UGA. When you got there what was it like? Start us from the beginning.

BR: Well actually, I transferred to the University of Georgia from Gainesville Junior College. I graduated high school in 1967 in Gainesville, Georgia at E.E. Butler High School. I graduated with an associates degree in science from Gainesville Junior College and transferred my credits to the University of 00:01:00Georgia. And started there in September 1969. My overall impression/experience was very positive. I loved being there when I was there and I have a lot of fond memories of being at the University of Georgia.

AC: Ok so, you transferred. Is it the same thing as it is now where you have to wait 2 years and then you have to send in your application? What was the process like from transferring?

BR: Well, it was actually fairly simple. I have a sister who also attended the University of Georgia. She was one year older and had graduated high school a year before I had. She also went to Gainesville Junior College and transferred after two years to the University of Georgia. It's part of the University System of Georgia so it was fairly easy. It wasn't-- At least I didn't perceive it to 00:02:00be a difficult thing to do at that point in time.

AC: Yeah. Ok so I'm sure back then you saw the culture of what UGA was. It was freshly, desegregated, there was a lot of tension still going on. What made you decide to transfer from the school you were at to UGA despite all of this stuff going on.

BR: Well for me it was economic. It was a situation where my parents didn't have money to pay for tuition or to pay for a higher education. It was clear that if I wanted to go to school I would have to pay for it pretty much for myself. Not that they didn't want to, they just didn't have it. They both were laborers. I 00:03:00stayed at home and went to junior college for two years. My tuition was not very much compared to today's standards. It was pretty paltry, I think. But I got a reasonable education but there is no question that when I got scholarships to other places, I was valedictorian of my high school class but I couldn't afford to go to Morehouse. I couldn't afford to go to Talladega or Morris Brown or those places that traditionally that some of the other that were available for African Americans. I probably could have gotten to Fort Valley and Savannah State because they were part of the University System of Georgia but again it was away from home and so I stayed at the junior college. I was influenced probably and my sister was influenced I suspect by the counselors at the Gainesville Junior College that you can transfer your credits fairly easily and 00:04:00knowing that the cost would be, again, very-- it will be minimal in comparison to going to some of the other schools. So there is an economic issue that my parents had two college age students who wanted/needed to go to school and capable and so it was a no brainer.

AC: So from what I am hearing and what I'm seeing on your shirt, you've always been a Georgia Bulldog. Is that something you've wanted do or what prompted you to become a Georgia Bulldog?

BR: Well, I'm a Georgia Bulldog now. When I went to the University of Georgia there was, of course, the football team and the basketball team and other sports but there was only one athlete of African American descent. A guy by the name of Ronnie Hogue that played basketball for the University of Georgia and I believe 00:05:00that was probably 1970 or 1971. Otherwise, when I went to the University of Georgia, if a SEC team came we really didn't go to the football games. I remember going to or listening to Georgia Tech games because they had a quarterback by the name of Eddie McAshen who was black and I would root for Eddie McAshen.

AC: Umhmm, yeah.

BR: And the one time I remember--I might have already graduated-- I can't remember. But I did go to a game when the University of Georgia played Georgia Tech and I rooted for Eddie McAshen.

AC: [laughter] The other team.

BR: Yeah. So once [Richard] Appleby and Horace Green became players, I wasn't a Bulldog in that sense, okay. So, I've since with the advent of the changes of 00:06:00the black athlete on the teams, yes I am a Bulldog fan.

AC: Yeah, so you said you didn't go to the football games. Why didn't you go to the football games were you guys--you guys were allowed to go, right?

BR: Well, yeah, we were allowed but again it was a situation there. There had been one black football player as I understand. And he transferred. I'm not sure the reason he transferred. As I recall he was a running back or something like that. He transferred out as I was coming in. And so the University of Alabama I think probably was integrating their team or in the process of integrating their team but you know if there were no black players on it I didn't feel I could identify with the University of Georgia sports for the most part until Ronnie 00:07:00Hogue became a part of the basketball team.

AC: Yeah, so we talked about you not being able to identify with it. Where did you find your identification or your identity? Where did you find that when you were at UGA once you transferred in?

BR: Well we were actually my sense of identity--let me backup for a minute. I guess from the standpoint of a cultural shock, going to school with whites and that kind of thing, my transition was probably easy. I went to an African American high school, E.E. Butler High School in Gainesville, Georgia. I matriculated at Gainesville Junior College, but my experience which is predominantly white. It was a white, a predominantly white institution. My experience there was-- If there was going to be a cultural shock I would think it would have been there in that classroom or whatever. I transitioned into that 00:08:00fairly well. But see I stayed at home so I was living at home, going to school in the day so it wasn't like you were isolated or whatever. I still had my friends that I graduated high school with and things like that. So by the time I got to Georgia, my sister was already there. So she basically kinda folded into the culture that she was there. By the time I was there, there were probably eighty to ninety blacks on the campus. We hung out in the Bulldog room and everybody knew where that corner was where all the black students were. We had our weekend things that we would go. There was the Black Student Union and actually by the time I got there I was a junior in college and so my maturity-- I had matured somewhat. Again my sister was there. And so it was just kind of a natural sorta thing. So I didn't feel isolated in that sense. There were other 00:09:00students who were going through some of the same things. As a matter a fact I probably, again, I was more mature than probably some of the freshmen that were coming in.

AC: Yeah.

BR: And so the culture shock was not for me that much of a problem. I wasn't fearful of going to school with whites. I wasn't fearful of the teachers. I mean, I had a sense of confidence in what I could do and you know that was my first experience with taking classes with three hundred and fifty other students. And it was my first organic chemistry class but it was, I knew what was expected and you know I was mature enough by that point in time that I could apply myself so it wasn't a problem.

AC: That's great! So I was so excited to interview you when I found out that you were a transfer student because what kept running through my head was I wonder 00:10:00what experience was like going to UGA from his old school? But hearing that it was to your advantage is really good to hear.

BR: Very much so.

AC: That once you got there you were mature, you knew how to handle things, you knew what was expected. So I have to ask you, when you were in those classes, like you said with three hundred and fifty students because those still exist at UGA, how did you keep up in a environment that was like that because as a black student something that I've heard in past interviews was sometimes the professors weren't that nice to students of color. What was your experience in classrooms, especially being a science major? How did you find your place academically on campus?

BR: Well actually I guess I can remember one positive thing, maybe a couple of things. I remember when I again, we didn't have a lot of money and that kind of 00:11:00thing but I was able to get a job working in the chemistry lab as a work study. And as I worked in the chemistry lab, I remember after taking, I had enrolled and I was in an organic chemistry class. 340 was what it was called at the time. The professor- last name was Newton and he was [chuckle] -- At the time they used these roller projectors. He rolled with one hand and write with the other and it project on the screen. And these formulas were just going everywhere and spatial orientation was just not well with all the things you had to look at. But I can remember again, I was probably the only black student in the class as 00:12:00I recall. In that particular class. In another class there was another black student but I was the only black student in the class. And I was at work after class and so I was in the lab. He was walking down the hall and I knew who he was but I didn't think he knew who I was. And he stopped walking back from the door. He had passed there probably several times during the course of the semester or the quarter. But he looked up and he saw me and says, "Hello, you're in my organic chemistry class aren't you?" And I said "Yes." And I was shaking in my boots because I thought he would say "You've had it." And he said, "Well, how are you doing?" I said "Well, I'm doing ok." I wanted to say, "Anything you can do to help me?" [laughter] But he said "How are you doing?" I said, "OK." And he said "Good." And that was it. That was the only interaction that we really had but for me it was a very positive thing. And so I don't think that, 00:13:00again, being realistic about it, being the only black in the class, I think he recognized me there. So I don't think it was negative being black in that class from that perspective, okay. Now there may be other people who had intent to be discriminatory. I'm not denying that at all but i don't think everybody was. And I think from my perspective during that time, it was a positive experience for the most part. There were negative experiences I had but I didn't choose to hold on to those.

AC: Right.

BR: And I think that as a-- And I don't think necessarily that everybody loves you or most of the--95 percent of the people didn't care one way or the other. There were probably, you know, two percent who hazed you and wished you weren't there. And probably another two percent that wanted to see more blacks there but 00:14:00for the most part I think that people were the--and again you have to remember during this time also blacks were a novelty, you know, as far as some of the schools particularly the deep south.

AC: So, what do you mean by 'they were a novelty'? Can you explain that for the people listening?

BR: Well I think that most whites didn't know blacks. You know I'm certain that there are pockets of our society that doesn't know black folk. And so, my perceptions of whites and their perceptions of me were not valid I guess you might say. And so, but there were people who were open minded enough, who would be interested enough to say 'Ok, lets see what you're about,' you know. And that kind of thing so in terms of being a novelty, that people didn't know you. They were a mystery to you. And there were people who were open enough. And there was 00:15:00a push to get blacks into schools. And so I think there was something that was encouraged by society overall but not by certain members of society, certainly.

AC: Right. I'm learning so much. So let's take a step away from academics and let's talk about your campus life. Where did you live when you transferred? Did you stay on campus for some time or were you off on campus?

BR: I stayed on campus my two years. I stayed in Milledge Hall. I stayed in Milledge Hall my first year. I had my first quarter, I remember walking into the dorm room and there was a guy by the name of-- my first quarter roommate. His 00:16:00name was Tom White, white guy. And he's very open, very nice.

AC: Oh! Good to hear.

BR: And so, that experience was-- I couldn't ask for anymore there. He moved out after my first quarter. My second quarter and my third quarter I didn't have a roommate because I'm sure nobody wanted in that Milledge Hall wanted to move in with me. And so I took that again as a positive, you know. Because I had a private room. My second year there, my senior year, there was a guy by the name of Alton Dunlap that he befriended me. He was a black guy. He was from anyway he was from down near Statesboro and- Metter, Georgia was where he was from. Al, I 00:17:00believe he stayed in Reed Hall. So we connected from the time I had the private room. I think he had a private room for the same reason and so my second year we roomed together. We moved over to Russell Hall. So we stayed at Russell the last two years.

AC: I'm smiling because I live in Reed now and I lived in Russell my freshman year so it's a big circle. So that's exciting. So you talked about your first quarter, you had a white roommate and you say you couldn't have asked for a better situation because he was open-minded. Can you talk about some of what made that a good experience? Were you nervous when you first approached that situation?

BR: Oh, I mean, absolutely. And each person is different. But he was very open. 00:18:00He was, again, a nice man. I was sorry he moved out. Now, we didn't hang around together so it wasn't like we went out and-- I mean, he would invite me sometimes but I never went. He had friends. He had roommates, I mean, he had friends that would come over and that kind of thing. But I had never gotten to that kind of a circle. So we went out. Whenever I socialized I got with my black friends. And we would go to the black house and/or we would do/go to some of the fraternity parties. There was one fraternity on campus. Alpha Phi Alpha was on campus first and so we either go to some of their parties or we would go to the parties at the black house where students would kinda get together and hang.

AC: And where was the black house?

BR: Black House was, I believe, at the time was up on Prince Ave - I'm docking 00:19:00on my street names. Lumpkin, yes, it was up on Lumpkin, up past -- There was a quid dorm that was there on Lumpkin. It was run by a private company. There was a private dwelling that had been occupied by a graduate student and he and the black student union, I guess named it the black house.

AC: Yeah.

BR: So.

AC: Is this the small one? Was it really small? I think Pastor Nawanna told me in the first interview that it was so small but you guys used it for so much stuff?

BR: Yeah, yeah, it was a very small dwelling. It was again, it was where we hung out. It was again a good experience. Everybody knew everybody. We were kinda 00:20:00close knit in that sense because, again, there were only about eighty on the whole campus so most of us knew each other. And so the graduate students didn't necessarily shun the undergraduates. We all kinda hung out together.

AC: That's exciting so what's your hardest moment that you can remember at UGA when you were there?

BR: Hmm. Hardest moment. I think taking Physics was probably one of the hardest courses.

AC: That's still a trend to this day, so--

BR: Yeah. In terms of anything socially going on, difficulties or that kind of thing, I don't remember. There was a time - I take that back - there was some time stressful in May of 1970 I believe that was. There were demonstrations in 00:21:00the streets. And as a matter of fact, my wife who is my wife now and I, we were dating at the time and we ended up going to jail. We were arrested as part of that demonstration. The demonstration that I was engaged in was not necessarily the same demonstration that the majority of people who were demonstrating for. There were black students, there were blacks who were involved in and disputing the closing of Burney Harris High School. And they were closing Burney Harris High School and moving the black students to Clarke Central or whatever the high 00:22:00school the white high school was then. So there was a pocket of black students who were protesting that. We joined, also a demonstration that was also a part of an anti-war movement so there was a large contingent of white students who were involved, also. And we kind of joined, I guess you might say in common cause. And so we ended up going to jail. It was stressful for my parents because these demonstrations had been going on every night for several weeks. There were riots in Augusta at that time I'm sure during that time as well for other reasons and all. So there was a lot of kinda turmoil and that kind of thing going on. I would call it stressful because you had to maintain your, try to 00:23:00maintain your good academic standing at that time as well. It was just difficult to do. And so that probably was the hardest time.

AC: Wow! Was this a Black Student Union put together demonstration or was this just black students in general just getting together to do this?

BR: Well actually it was bigger than that in some sense because SCLC was also involved in it.

AC: SCLC, what does that stand for?

BR: Southern Leadership - Martin Luther King's organization, OK.

AC: Okay, wow.

BR: Southern Christian Leadership Conference. And so members of SCLC were also involved in some of the organization and demonstrations during that time. As a matter of fact, Hosea Williams, I believe, came down and we would meet in the 00:24:00church and then he'd give speeches then we'd go out into the streets. On the occasion I/we went to jail as a matter a fact, I recall. We went to, I'm sorry I can't remember the name of the church. But we met in the church and there was the kind of getting the juices flowing kind of speech, then we went out marching. Looked around and there were national guard troops who were kinda lining the way and there was a guy over the bullhorn. And there were about 300 students, mostly students marching. We were asked to disperse and when we didn't 00:25:00disperse then we were notified that we were under arrest and they had these trucks. And they loaded everybody up on trucks and that kind of thing. It was a peaceful sort of thing or whatever. But, nevertheless we looked around and said where's Hosea and they said, "No, he's gone back to Atlanta." [laughter]

AC: He was out of there.

BR: He was out. It was kind of a lesson in terms of I guess practicality and good choices and that kind of thing. I look back at on it today as a tumultuous time. And it was a learning experience, yeah.

AC: Yeah, I see you smiling and laughing about these memories. Thinking back to younger, I guess, Dr. Benjamin Rucker what did you see yourself being that made 00:26:00you strong enough to withstand those science classes and some of the harder times that you had on campus? What got you through that? What was your inspiration to get you to graduation in June of 1971?

BR: Again, my background, my dad had two years of college as a matter a fact but he didn't finish. So he ended up being a laborer and I think it, seeing the effect it had on him. And my mother had finished high school and again she was a laborer. And I spent-- I started working doing things--I started working when I was around 15 just kinda little things. But then I started working on a regular basis at age 16. So all my summers were spent working where my dad worked. He 00:27:00worked at a poultry processing plant. And I experienced how people who didn't have education or didn't use their education were, maybe it's too strong a word but doomed to experiences that were not necessarily uplifting. I didn't want to do that the rest of my life. I mean it was clear. One of the greatest lessons my dad taught me was 'your either gonna go to school or you're gonna work'. You don't have to do what I do but you're not going to stay here and not work. And you're not going to-- if you go to school we gonna do what we can for you but you gotta work. And so I'd rather work over a text book and going to a class 00:28:00than the sweating that I had to do. And the labor looking back on it wasn't that hard. There were some jobs there that were grueling, unsanitary. And what some of the people do there was not safe in my opinion. But nevertheless, sitting in that air condition building and reading a book, thinking about learning to me was a gift that I had in comparison to what I would be doing. And so I had, it was a no brainer about what direction I would take. And so grateful for the opportunity to be able to do that and I not only did it but I didn't have to-- The state was helping me pay for it.

AC: Yeah.

BR: And so I was able to do it. My sister was able to do it. We were able to 00:29:00achieve an education and what I believe was a good education without, to God be the glory, without having to be in all that debt.

AC: I am so happy to hear that your sister was there for some of the time you were there. Did she talk to you before you came and said 'hey, i don't know or hey, cmon?' Did she have a message for you before you got there being that she was there before you?

BR: As I recall again, her message was positive and she had the same experience at home that I had. She had the same motivation that I had. And so again it was 00:30:00a natural sort of transition. Now would we have liked to be in the AU Center somewhere? Yes. From a social standpoint we probably did miss out on a lot in terms of nurturing or whatever--

AC: Like at an HBCU.

BR: Exactly, but again it was a different time.

AC: Yeah.

BR: Again, I look back, I may be romanticizing it a lot but as I look back on it, it was a positive experience.

AC: And I think it's good to hear this because for many people listening they may not think it was possible to have a good experience.

BR: And again when I was talking about 1969-70, this was several years after 00:31:00Charlayne Hunter-Gault and Hamilton Holmes had been there. And there had been other students that had been there and so their experience probably was different than mine. And again I'm not saying that all the experiences-- there were people-- daily you had to look at a confederate flag in the window or something. And again there were always concerns about being ostracized or somebody saying something or whatever. But again I was there for a specific purpose and I have been accused, I guess, of having blinders on. That's quite possible. But I choose to remember the more positive things. I think that's 00:32:00healthy in life over the years.

AC: So rewinding a little bit. You talked about this room that you guys went into. You said the black house but there was also another room you said where you guys went.

BR: Yes, we were in the Bulldog Room.

AC: Yes, the Bulldog Room. Can you tell me about that? Where was that on campus?

BR: The Bulldog Room was in the Student Union Building. I think the building is still there. Where the bridge that comes past Stegeman- the coliseum -Stegeman, across the football, Sanford Stadium. And it was in the back of Milledge and Reed. It was a part of that quadrant there. And so the student union building 00:33:00and in there was a student center and they would play music and tables and fast food area there. So it was kinda that between classes we hung out back in that corner right there. And we hung out there. And so between classes you could find your buddies there and find people there, you know. If you had gripes you can unload and so there was always somebody there that you could identify with.

AC: Was that considered you guys' safe space?

BR: Absolutely, yes. That was a good safe space for us. Yes, so you would always go to that area. And then in the afternoons we would hang out in the corner of Bolton Hall in the cafeteria.

AC: My favorite dining hall. [laughter]

BR: Yeah, we had a corner, we had a large area and there was a small room on the 00:34:00side. Not small, smaller at the corner of Bolton Hall. So we would sit there and we'd shared, laughed and had a good time. We knew where we could go and share. It was a good situation to be in there. And again that is why I didn't feel isolated because I knew where I could go and connect.

AC: And that's great that you had those places where you could --

BR: I'm sure, and again, Mrs. Hunter-Gault and Dr. Holmes didn't have that. So that made a difference for me, I'm sure.

AC: I have this last question for you. We've talked about what campus was like, what classes were like and where you've lived. I wanna know, what do you have to say to the black males there now who are just so thankful for people like you 00:35:00who helped pave the way in a sense. For us to be how we are now. For me to be in a position where I am now interviewing you. What to do you have to say to the black males on campus now who are working to finish?

BR: I would say, again, the same thing to just keep it going because there is more to life than just me. There is more to life than what I'm going to do and what I'm going to get or whatever. It's also about people who are following you. And the people that you're going to meet in the future. And so you do have a--certainly, when I was going through it I wasn't necessarily thinking about a legacy or anything at the time. But as I look back on it, certainly there is a legacy and you want to leave things better how you found it. And so I would 00:36:00encourage, study hard, work, because you want to pave the way as Hamilton Holmes and Charlayne Hunter-Gault did for us. And I would encourage hard work and honest work and continue to celebrate what God's given us.

AC: Well thank you so, so much. I can't thank you enough for just shedding just knowledge and wisdom on me. I appreciate it.

BR: You're welcome.

AC: Alright so that's it. My name is Ashley Carter and we will see you in the next interview.