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Interview with Joshua Norris, April 12, 2017

Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia
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00:00:25 - Investigations by the DOJ / Background of the Settlement Agreement

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Partial Transcript: My name is Josh Norris...

Segment Synopsis: Norris describes his position in the Georgia Advocacy Office, a position which he held before he came to work at the Southern Poverty Law Center. Norris states that as legal director in the Georgia Advocacy Office, he was in charge of investigation and legal work, including an investigation into the conditions of state-run mental hospital in Georgia. Norris explains that additionally, the Department of Justice (DOJ) used information provided by the Georgia Advocacy Office for their investigations over the condition of Georgia State Hospitals. Norris discusses how the DOJ representatives refrained from informing people in the Georgia Advocacy Office about the status of the investigations on the Georgia state mental health hospitals. Norris talks about how, in 2009, he was informed that the DOJ had reached a settlement agreement with the state of Georgia concerning the state of mental health hospitals. Norris explains that, as a result, he contacted David Deutsch and Mary Bohan, leading attorneys from the DOJ, to find out the reason behind the settlement. Norris explains that he felt that the Georgia settlement, along with two other similar settlements in the country, were coerced by the Republican party as political favors.

Keywords: David Deutsch; Department of Justice (DOJ); Georgia Advocacy Office; Mary Bohan; Southern Poverty Law Center

00:07:53 - Politics and the settlement agreement / Upholding Olmstead v. L.C.

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Partial Transcript: It became pretty clear that this was a politically motivated thing.

Segment Synopsis: Norris shares how he feels that the settlement agreement was the result of the political climate before the 2009 presidential election. Norris explains that the Department of Justice representatives were focused on fixing the mental hospitals facilities instead of developing the community based services. Norris talks about how the Georgia state hospitals needed to develop community based services in order to uphold the precedent established by the Supreme Court case, Olmstead v. L.C, which made mandatory the highest possible level of integration of those with disabilities into the community. Norris talks about how stakeholders and advocacy groups were not satisfied by the rulings of the settlement agreement, and eventually sought opposition to the decision. Norris recalls the moment when Cynthia Wainscott, a leading mental health advocate, wrote a letter to Judge Charles Pannell which highlighted the disservices of the settlement agreement to the mental health community.

Keywords: Cynthia Wainscott; Department of Justice (DOJ); Judge Charles Pannell; Olmstead v. L.C.

00:16:02 - Settlement agreement ruling

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Partial Transcript: So Judge Pannell....

Segment Synopsis: Norris relates an account where he later met Judge Charles Pannell (the residing judge over the settlement agreement) in a restraining order hearing. He recalls that Judge Pannell states that his (Panell's) clerks received phone calls from Department of Justice (DOJ) representatives to push for the quick compliance over the conditions of the settlement agreement. Norris shares that Judge Pannell was reluctant to approve the settlement agreement and postponed immediate approval. Norris explains that he felt Judge Pannell had a "healthy skepticism" about the state mental healthcare, and as a result, pushed for further negotiations among advocacy groups and the DOJ. Norris describes Cynthia Wainscott as a leading figure in the organization, Mental Health America. Norris talks about how Judge Pannell required that the advocacy groups meet with the DOJ to work out a new agreement concerning the reformation of the Georgia mental healthcare system. Norris states that Samuel Bagenstos, the new head of the Civil Rights Department at the DOJ, became involved after the change of administration. Norris explains that Bagenstos assisted the Department of Justice representatives in the implementation of civil and disability rights after the change of the political climate from the 2009 election. Norris recalls that advocacy groups were comprised of the mental health amici, which included the Carter Center, Cynthia Wainscott, Atlanta Legal Aid, representatives of the Bazelon Center in Washington, and the Government Accountability Office (GAO).

Keywords: Atlanta Legal Aid; Bazelon Center; Cynthia Wainscott; Department of Justice (DOJ); Government Accountability Office (GAO); Judge Charles Pannell; Samuel Bagenstos; Thomas Perez

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00:23:13 - Advocacy groups / Pursuing litigation against Georgia state mental health care

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Partial Transcript: So Bazelon was representing them as one group objecting to the settlement...

Segment Synopsis: Norris explains that advocacy groups were comprised of two groups, one comprised of the mental health amici, which included the Carter Center, Cynthia Wainscott, Atlanta Legal Aid, representatives of the Bazelon Center in Washington, and the other group was the Government Accountability Office (GAO). Norris explains that the advocacy groups and the Government Accountability Office differed in their goals concerning litigation over the state of Georgia. Norris explains that the Government Accountability Office (GOA) was pursuing the case with the evidence gathered from personal investigation, while the advocacy groups were pursuing litigation concerning the failure of Georgia state mental health hospitals to implement the Olmstead v. L.C. Supreme Court decision. Norris recalls how in fall of 2009, the amici reported back to Judge Charles Pannell that a decision had not been reached between advocacy groups (including the GOA) and the Department of Justice. Norris explains that the two divisions in the advocacy groups eventually came together to form one group that was tasked with the purpose of pursuing litigation against the state of Georgia, in opposition to the Department of Justice.

Keywords: Allison Barkoff; Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law; Georgia Accountability Office (GAO); Judge Charles Pannell; Ruby Moore; Samuel Bagenstos

00:29:59 - Differences between behavioral and mental health care

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Partial Transcript: Do you feel that that distinction was appreciated...

Segment Synopsis: Norris talks about how the distinction between the litigation over the mental health community and the developmental disabilities community differed. Norris explains that the advocacy groups were less concerned with the condition of the developmental disability community, as they presumed that the community only needed to receive aid in community integration as opposed to the extensive systematic reform required of the mental health system. Norris explains how the advocacy groups pushed for independence among the developmental disability community. Norris recalls that as a result, Georgia administered a "host home" program for those with developmental disabilities, which Norris likened to a foster home system. Norris explains that this program did not take into account people's desires and preferences when placing them into the families, which resulted in failing to provide adequate integration of those with developmental disabilities into the community.

Keywords: Mental health community; Ruby Moore; developmental disabilities

00:35:56 - Goals of the advocacy groups

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Partial Transcript: The assumption was that the DD (Developmental Disability) system was okay ...

Segment Synopsis: Norris describes the lack of services in the mental health community of Georgia, including the lack of emergency and intensive procedures and the lack of change in patients' status despite extended stay and repeated visits to Georgia state hospitals. Norris explains that the mental health advocacy groups had specific goals, which made it easier to receive support and funding for litigation as opposed to the developmental disability advocacy groups. Norris talks about how his focus throughout the settlement agreement litigation process was on providing homes and jobs for those with mental disabilities.

Keywords: Department of Behavioral Health and Developmental Disabilities; Elizabeth Jones; Ruby Moore

00:41:34 - Reflections on the settlement agreement / Pre-settlement care

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Partial Transcript: From the standpoint of the settlement...

Segment Synopsis: Norris explains that he felt that people were satisfied by the results of the new settlement agreement. Norris shares his regret over the fact that children were not included in the settlement agreement which he claims was caused because Georgia state hospitals moved child patients into private hospitals in order to avoid investigations conducted by the Department of Justice. Norris talks about he feels that the population of patients with less intense mental health problems might have felt excluded from the settlement agreement, as many of the resources were distributed to those with more severe mental disabilities. Norris describes previous attempts at implementation of Assertive Community Treatment (ACT) teams, which Norris states failed at adequately providing care for those with mental disabilities. Norris explains that as a result of the settlement agreement, the Department of Behavioral Health and Developmental Disabilities got pulled out of the Department of Human Services. Norris talks about how the development of a housing community experienced success. Norris explains that the system in place in Georgia for caring for people with developmental disabilities involved sending patients into "four-person placement," which was essentially a host family assigned to each patient.

Keywords: Assertive Community Treatment teams (ACT) teams; Department of Behavioral Health and Developmental Disabilities; Department of Human Services (DHS); Department of Justice (DOJ); Elizabeth Jones; Frank Berry; Frank Shelp; Government Accountability Office (GAO); Judy Fitzgerald

00:49:23 - Pre-settlement care (cont.) / Future of Georgia care

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Partial Transcript: Some of that, I think, personally had to do with sort of orientation and how they thought about people...

Segment Synopsis: Norris talks about how pre-settlement (the process of planning for transitioning out of living at a mental hospital to living in the community) failed in transitioning people with mental health disabilities into stable housing. Norris explains how that structure of the mental health housing vouchers for those eligible in receiving care from Georgia State Hospitals, did not account for those who might have had the more complex issues typically associated with treatment of the developmental disabilities. Norris states that he feels that the future of Georgia care for those with mental health problems and developmental disabilities lies in recognizing that all people deserve independence and possess the same human drives and desires.

Keywords: Georgia Department of Developmental Disabilities