Interview with Dr. Walter Leonard, Part 2 of 2

TAPE: 2

[BARS AND TONE: [02]02:00:11]

[02]02:00:49

WALTER J LEONARD : Uh, with respect to music, uh, I would have to say that, for us, music was more than music. Uh, it was (STAMMERS) it was a way to, to get in touch with what, uh, we considered, uh, to be, uh, a source of strength. And it was like a language. (STAMMERS) And, uh, we knew that when we listened to Billy Jordan (SP?) and his (SOUNDS LIKE) Tempen Five, uh, we were hearing the same thing that other young men and young women, uh, were listening to in Los Angeles and Seattle and New York and Boston.

[02]02:01:36

WALTER J LEONARD : Uh, when we would do, uh, listen to, uh, uh, Marian Anderson (SP?), uh, and, uh, could hear the incredible range of her voice, uh, we could, we could feel, we could see, uh, the greatness, and also the beauty of the human spirit. And (STAMMERS) there really is nothing more beautiful than the human voice when it is, when it is used and controlled and, uh, and particularly in song. Uh, so, uh, (CLEARS THROAT) we, we then would watch (STAMMERS), uh, William Morfield (SP?), uh, Paul Robeson. Uh, we could listen to the sultry tones of, uh, Billy Epstein (SP?) or, or, uh, (WORD?), Johnny (WORD?)

[02]02:02:27

LISA FRIEDMAN : Tell me about the game you played.

[02]02:02:31

WALTER J LEONARD : (STAMMERS) Yeah, what we would do is that, uh, we would have, we had record collections. And, uh, we would then determine who had this record or who had that one. Uh, and then we would hear some obscure song somewhere. And, uh, we would listen to it. And learn the, the words. Uh, and then we would raise the question with each other. Now, uh, have you heard (STAMMERS), uh, Ube Blake's, uh, Memories? Uh, have you heard, oh, uh, maybe, particularly, have you heard (STAMMERS) Denny Rendo (SP?) and Crescendo In Blue by, uh, Duke Ellington, you know.

[02]02:03:21

WALTER J LEONARD : Uh, and if you hadn't heard it, well, then the person who was asked the question, (STAMMERS) who had asked the question, they were then to get on-stage and say, well, let me tell you about it, you know. And then say, oh, by the way, I brought it with me. (LAUGH) So we would sit and we would listen and, uh, we would, uh, talk about that. But then the great folk songs. And the great folk songs were important because there was a connection between, uh, the Scottish Highland songs in North Carolina, uh, and the, uh, songs of (STAMMERS), of the Appalachians in Georgia and Tennessee.

[02]02:04:05

WALTER J LEONARD : And the Delta blues. That there was this overlap. They all represented a longing in the human spirit. Uh, and, and then we would listen, uh, to Sebalis (SP?) Uh, we would listen to Rachmaninoff. Rachmaninoff. We would listen to (STAMMERS) the, uh, uh, the 1812 Overture. Uh, and we would then compare that to Duke Ellington's Come Sunday. And, or his, uh, Black, Brown & Beige. Uh, and (CLEARS THROAT) so (STAMMERS) we decided to look at music as a oneness, as, uh, as a carpet on which one would walk to freedom, uh, so to speak.

[02]02:04:48

WALTER J LEONARD : And, uh, then, of course, (STAMMERS) we, uh, got into the, uh, the gospels and the spirituals. And they're very different. Uh, all too often, those, they're confused. People say, think in terms of gospel singing and spirituals, but we'd get into the spirituals. The spirituals were those songs that were, uh, done, uh, a capella by early slaves who would be singing in the fields.

[02]02:05:17

LISA FRIEDMAN : (OVERLAPPING) Do you remember any?

[02]02:05:20

WALTER J LEONARD : Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. I mean, the, the songs, (STAMMERS), uh, like Swing Lo Sweet Chariot. Now, when the, when the slaves said, swing lo, sweet chariot, (STAMMERS) or, uh, stop and let me ride, what the slave was saying is, we're going to escape. And so it was, (STAMMERS) there was a message there. And then there was another one. (STAMMERS) There's going to be a great camp meeting in the promised land. Well, the promised land was Ohio or Pennsylvania or Canada. So the great camp meeting was to get across the river, you see, and escape and meet with each other.

[02]02:06:01

WALTER J LEONARD : And then move on up into Canada, you see. And, uh, then there was another one that, uh, I think I might use some of this, (STAMMERS) When I get to heaven, I'm going to put on my shoes and shout all over God's heaven. Well, when I get to Canada, I'm going to celebrate (STAMMERS) getting away from slaver. (STAMMERS) So that, (CLEARS THROAT) (STAMMERS) so we would listen to those songs. And we could, we could then sort of feel ourselves being sort of drawn back, uh, and in many ways, (STAMMERS), uh, have the, have the emotions that (STAMMERS) the slaves must have had.

[02]02:06:45

WALTER J LEONARD : And, uh, then there were, there were just these incredibly, uh, great songs that were, that were, uh, inspired by those songs, which were not slave songs. But they were the sort of the second generation after slavery. Like Precious Lord, Take My Hand, which was written by, uh, Tommy Dorsey. The Black Thomas Dorsey. Uh, and so we would listen to those songs as well. And then we'd listen to the great spirituals that were inspired, uh, (STAMMERS) the great religious tunes, the hymns, which were inspired by the spirituals.

[02]02:07:23

WALTER J LEONARD : For example, (STAMMERS) Amazing Grace. You know who wrote Amazing Grace? John Newton. Well, John Newton was a slave captain. John Newton was a man who, who invented what was called the (SOUNDS LIKE) tight pack. Uh, he figured out that they would lose at least 1-3rd of the slaves being shipped from (STAMMERS) Africa, uh, to, uh, uh, to the islands, or to the United States. So in order to ensure that he would have a good load to sell, first of all, those that he lost at sea, they were insured.

[02]02:08:03

WALTER J LEONARD : So, you know, just toss them overboard. They collect insurance. But then in order to have a good load to sell, he would, he would pack them like sardines, all right. Well, (CLEARS THROAT) then (STAMMERS), so after Newton, uh, operated a slave ship as a captain for about seven, eight years, he became ill. Very ill. Almost died. And something occurred to him, that, you know, maybe there's, there's a greater source of power somewhere that controls what I'm doing.

[02]02:08:46

WALTER J LEONARD : Uh, so then, uh, he, uh, met, uh, William Wilburforce (SP?) Uh, and, uh, he then began to, uh, to become a minister in the, uh, Angelica, Angelica (STAMMERS) tradition. Uh, and he wrote this song. Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. And (STAMMERS) he was a wretch. An absolute wretch, but it has become probably one of the most sought-after songs now (STAMMERS), in the repertoire of, of religious singers. But it was . . .

[02]02:09:24

LISA FRIEDMAN : (OVERLAPPING) (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

[02]02:09:24

WALTER J LEONARD : . . . but it was written by a slave captain who, who, who was at the point of losing his life. And he wrote, uh, this song. So we would listen to that, and listen to all of the verses. And we would listen to that to hear the (STAMMERS) anguish that (STAMMERS) John Newton had as a slave captain. And, uh, so then we would come back and we would then listen to other music that was fun music, you know. Ella Fitzgerald's (STAMMERS) A Tisket, A Tasket. Uh, a brown and yellow basket. We would listen to that. And, uh, we would also listen to some of the, uh, we listened to Minnie Pearl.

[02]02:10:06

WALTER J LEONARD : Or, uh, Minnie Pearl and the, uh, (WORD?) (STAMMERS) Grand Old Opry was actually initiated by a Black, uh, person named, uh, uh, Ed Bailey, who said I'm going to play a little Opry tonight. And they picked up Grand Old Opry. They don't give him credit for it. (LAUGH) But he said, I'm going to play a little Opry tonight, rather than opera, I'm going to play a little (STAMMERS) Opry. Uh, and, uh, so it caught on and became the Grand Old Opry.

[02]02:10:38

WALTER J LEONARD : Uh, so we would listen to the, uh, uh, Minnie Pearl, whom I had the pleasure of meeting later when I served as president of Fisk University. (STAMMERS) Got to know her very well. Quite a woman. (STAMMERS) (CLEARS THROAT) She was a little bit concerned because they were about to build the governor's mansion out near her house, and she was concerned about whether or not that was going to be appropriate to have as a neighbor, to have a governor (WORD?) (LAUGH) Uh, so music . . . (NON-INTERVIEW DIALOGUE)

[02]02:11:12

WALTER J LEONARD : So music, music was, uh, then, of course, we come to things like, Life Every Voice And Sing, which was considered, and still considered to be (STAMMERS) the Black national anthem.

[02]02:11:25

LISA FRIEDMAN : These songs you'd sing at mass meetings also?

[02]02:11:26

WALTER J LEONARD : Oh, yeah, yeah. And then of course, the, uh, well, (STAMMERS) Lift Our Voice And Sing was, was like singing the Star Spangled Banner. And, uh, then, of course, the song, We Shall Overcome, which became the, uh, anthem . . .

[02]02:11:42

LISA FRIEDMAN : (OVERLAPPING) Do you want to sing any of these?

[02]02:11:45

WALTER J LEONARD : No, no, no. Which, which became the anthem of the, uh, of the civil rights movement, (STAMMERS), uh, We Shall Overcome. And in fact, the amazing thing about that is that that song was then (STAMMERS) picked up by the people in Northern Ireland. It was picked up by the Chinese. It was, it has been picked up by almost every group in the world that's been seeking to liberate themselves, they have picked up We Shall Overcome. And that was . . .

[02]02:12:17

LISA FRIEDMAN : (OVERLAPPING) (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

[02]02:12:18

WALTER J LEONARD : It was ours. (LAUGH) (TECHNICAL)

[02]02:12:28

LISA FRIEDMAN : Tell me the bus story.

[02]02:13:23

WALTER J LEONARD : Well, (CLEARS THROAT), uh, before, in Savannah, before Wesley, there was a man named Ralph Mark Gilbert (SP?), and then there were others. So we were on that show (WORD?) So when I say something about Wesley being the foundation, uh, he represented the foundation. He was (STAMMERS) the second or third generation from (STAMMERS) the people who, my grandfather and others. Uh, Wesley was, uh, was an honor graduate in (WORD?) He was not a historian. (MUMBLES)

[02]02:14:01

WALTER J LEONARD : Very, very much, uh, wishing and wanting to go, maybe, to medical school. But it would have, (STAMMERS) one, meant, uh, having to find the funds to do it, and secondly, would have meant leaving his mother. And he simply was not going to leave his mother. Just simple as that. He was also very much, uh, passionately (STAMMERS) attached to, uh, Savannah. I mean, (STAMMERS) and he felt very, very strongly that if I am going to live in Savannah, and I'm going to, if I'm going to be governed by Savannah, by Savannah's laws and by (STAMMERS), I'm going to have something to say about how that is done.

[02]02:14:51

WALTER J LEONARD : Uh, I'm going to have something to say about how I'm treated. I'm going to have something to say about how my taxes are collected and then used to build golf courses on which I can't play. Or build schools in which I cannot study. (BACKGROUND NOISE) Or (STAMMERS) how your police force that does nothing other than terrorize me. All right, so I'm going to have something to say about that. Well, one of the things that just bothered us day in and day out was the, the insult of segregation.

[02]02:15:29

WALTER J LEONARD : And there was nothing more emphatic in that regard than the daily bus. You'd have to get on the bus, put your money in, in the, uh, machine. And if the driver felt like it, you would tell you to go around and get on the back, sometimes pulling away, or tell, you would go through and then you would sit in the back seat. And (STAMMERS) the sign up there (STAMMERS) in the bus was that, colored will seat from the rear toward the front.

[02]02:16:20

WALTER J LEONARD : And White (STAMMERS) from the front toward the rear. We would take the bus and we would, uh, down on, uh, Brothen Street, Brothen and Habesham (SP?), uh, going out to the college. Now here are college students, you know, here we are, 17, 18, 19 years old or older, paying our way on the bus, getting on and then being told, you've got to move to the back. Now we're presumably, presumably, the creme de la creme. You know, we are the ones who are going to make this economy and make this city and make our lives better.

[02]02:17:05

WALTER J LEONARD : But we're being told, you really are not considered fully human. And so day after day, we would ride this bus. Now, when I was in high school, I walked. I just refused to ride that bus. I would walk three miles from my home in west Savannah, at the beach, (STAMMERS) beach, and finally, and the bus would go and it would stop at, uh, the college entrance out here on Falligut Avenue (SP?) You might go out and see Falligut. You might have a, uh, your cameraman might take a picture.

[02]02:17:41

WALTER J LEONARD : Falligut Avenue. That's where the bus turned around, right over here. There's a little place called BJ James right in front of the place. And then it would go back through Thunderbolt. So finally, I said to Wesley and to Clifford and to other friend, John Wright (SP?), I said, I'll just be damned if I'm going to move to the back of this bus anymore. So we waited until the students getting on filled up all of the seats right up to, and we're supposed to leave the last four seats vacant, just in case a White person would get on the bus in Thunderbolt.

[02]02:18:23

WALTER J LEONARD : Then they would have to be bothered with us getting up to move back or either sitting down (STAMMERS) where we had sat immediately. And so when the bus filled up to those seats, (STAMMERS) I paid my fare and sat on the, uh, this (STAMMERS) seat here. And as we moved along, the driver said, (STAMMERS) I'm going to have to have that seat. I said nothing. Wesley was on the bus. Clifford was on the bus, you know. As it moved further down toward the town, he said, I've got to have that seat.

[02]02:19:01

WALTER J LEONARD : And we said nothing. And finally, two or three men got on, and the driver turned and he said, boy, did you hear me? I've got to have that seat. And I said to him, sir, the law is that colored seat from the rear toward the front. And every seat behind me is filled. Now even if you put some seats out there on the running board or on the bumper, if the seats behind me were filled, according to the law, I can sit out there. I am not going to move. Well, uh, you know, that was heresy. (LAUGH) That was, that was unheard of. But just remember now, we had gone through a Second World War.

[02]02:19:56

LISA FRIEDMAN : (OVERLAPPING) (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

[02]02:19:57

WALTER J LEONARD : See, this is 1949. We'd gone through a Second World War. Truman had just desegregated the armed forces. We have cases like Sweat V. Painor (SP?) that were pending in the United States Supreme Court. And here we are in Savannah, sitting, built on the backs of my people, and the bus driver's telling me, boy, get up and move. I said, I paid my fare.

[02]02:20:22

LISA FRIEDMAN : Before Rosa Parks?

[02]02:20:23

WALTER J LEONARD : Absolutely. Six years before Rosa Parks. And so he, uh, stopped and he called the sheriff. And the sheriff called the president of the college and said, I got one of your boys down here. And the president said, well, I'll send somebody to get him. (BACKGROUND NOISE) And President Colson (SP?) sent someone to get me. And (BACKGROUND NOISE) he, and he said, you got to be careful. You've got to be very careful. That's all pretty much what he said. Just be careful.

[02]02:20:53

LISA FRIEDMAN : (OVERLAPPING) (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

[02]02:20:54

WALTER J LEONARD : No, no, no. No, no. So (CLEARS THROAT) the word has passed rapidly, traveled rapidly that we had founded a college chapter of the NAACP on the campus. That I had been there, uh, I had traveled to Washington to the NAACP Youth (STAMMERS) Legislative Conference. And that (STAMMERS) I had now gone to this, to last step. I had refused to obey the segregation laws. And that was just absolute heresy. So they sent (STAMMERS) a committee from the, uh, Georgia State Legislature down to Savannah. Down to this campus.

[02]02:21:35

WALTER J LEONARD : And they talked with the president, the new president. Uh, Colson was pushed away. And, uh, the new president called me in and told me that, you're a Black fellow. And that, uh, it would be in the best interests of the school, because the school is at the sufferance (STAMMERS) and the whim and the will of the Georgia State Legislature. They will close this school. And then so many other people will suffer. But you going to be all right. So he asked me to leave.

[02]02:22:16

LISA FRIEDMAN : He asked you leave?

[02]02:22:16

WALTER J LEONARD : Yes, so I left Savannah State. And I left Savannah. And I went and spent some time in (STAMMERS) Columbia, South Carolina, and from Columbia, I went up to Washington. And, uh, I have visited Savannah often since then. I had family here. Uh . . .

[02]02:22:36

LISA FRIEDMAN : (OVERLAPPING) Went on to become president of Fisk.

[02]02:22:37

WALTER J LEONARD : Well, some very nice things happened to me. Very nice things happened to me. I went . . .

[02]02:22:40

LISA FRIEDMAN : (OVERLAPPING) (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

[02]02:22:41

WALTER J LEONARD : Yeah. I, I (STAMMERS) went on to, uh, spent, uh, time at Morehouse and Atlanta University. And I went to Howard Law School. Uh, then I was hired by Harvard, so I went to the Harvard Business School. And then, uh, after that, I went down as president of Fisk. And strangely enough, I was invited to come to Oxford, uh, and, uh, I now, uh, have a lifetime appointment at Wilson College in, uh, the Center For Socio-Legal Studies at Oxford. And just two years ago, they, uh, they established two fellowships in my name at Oxford.

[02]02:23:26

WALTER J LEONARD : So for the first time in its 900 year history, uh, it has fellowships named for an African-American. And what is so amazing is that this happens in England, when I'm sure that there are a great number of people in this country who would like very much to forget that I've existed. Uh, but, uh . . .

[02]02:23:48

LISA FRIEDMAN : (OVERLAPPING) Not us.

[02]02:23:49

WALTER J LEONARD : Well, I know that, but, but it's amazing that (STAMMERS), that the, uh, that Oxford, uh, seems to want to celebrate whatever experiences I've had. And, uh, so they've named these two fellowships over there. It's amazing. It's truly amazing. (TECHNICAL)

[02]02:24:09

WALTER J LEONARD : Uh, the Center For Socio-Legal Studies at Wilson College at Oxford arranged a luncheon in Washington, DC, uh, to announce the two fellowships. And I had given them names of persons, uh, one, whom I would love to have seen that, and others whom I just wanted to know about this. The luncheon (CLEARS THROAT) began at noon at the, uh, JW Marriot Hotel in Washington. But shortly after noon, things were underway. The, uh, we had people like (STAMMERS) Nicky Giovanni (STAMMERS) and Cecily Tyson and a few other people there.

[02]02:24:56

WALTER J LEONARD : And, uh, so we're all sitting, just about to get started. And the door opened to the dining room. In walked WW Law. Well, first of all, it was almost, it almost brought tears, but it was just absolutely incredible. He walked in. And I immediately got up and I showed him to his seat. And he, uh, and I'm telling this story today, by the way, so he said, uh, please tell, you're the guest and I'm sorry, uh, to be late. I said, no, no, no. I said, no, no, no. He said, my bus arrived in Washington a little late.

[02]02:25:49

WALTER J LEONARD : (OVERLAPPING) So, uh, we then, you know, went through the session. WW made some remarks. Then after the luncheon, uh, I said, WW, are you going home with us and maybe spend, (STAMMERS) no, no, no, no, I've got to go back to Savannah. (CLEARS THROAT) The only thing he could let me do is to take him back to the bus station to get the next bus back for a 12 hour ride back to Savannah. He took a 12 hour bus ride to Washington just to be with his friend. So-- (TECHNICAL)

[02]02:26:48

WALTER J LEONARD : The only thing he wanted to do was to be there when they announced this fellowship. So, you know, 12 hours there and 12 hours back.

[END OF TAPE: [02]02:27:16]